Sangram Vajre shares his insider expertise for creating and executing a successful ABM campaign.

Prior to co-founding Terminus, Varje led the marketing team at Pardot through its acquisition by ExactTarget and then Salesforce.

He is the Co-Founder of Terminus, the author of Account-Based Marketing For Dummies, and the host the #FlipMyFunnel Podcast.



By the way how many of you are doing ABM or aware of ABM, most of you, that’s cool. That’s pressure, typically I speak to people who have no idea so it’s like yeah, it can really be awesome. But if you know I love for questions, stop me anytime this is a fun topic, this is a passion project of mine, I fell in love with this idea of flipping funnels and that’s why I started flip my funnel movement and podcast we do it daily and the whole idea is to share something that you learn every day.

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It could be 10 minutes, it could 20 minutes, it could be 30 minutes it doesn’t really matter, that’s why the podcast has been a fun thing to do. So hopefully if nothing else or anywhere else they can check it out. All right so getting into lessons so first of all I’d love to hear of people who are practicing ABM why, ABM, why are you practicing ABM? Anyone? Save time and money. Save time and money that’s one. A lot of raised their hands, I’m going to start pointing at people and ask questions. Anybody, why are you doing ABM and why not? So, you can target the right customers with the right message and the right prospects with the right message. Target the right, I would never use the word prospects, just because I used you do that for the last 10 years and then it dawned on me, how many of you like to be prospected? Hunted? Yeah. Farmed? Something like that. The phrases that we use actually also somehow communicate what we think about our customers and future customers. I always think about customers and future customers and not just because I’m going to say future customers, it’s because if you’re truly doing ABM then you know who you’re going after. Those people are not just any people because they are the one that you believe that your product or service fits perfectly for them otherwise you would not be reaching out to them. If nothing else think about customers and future customers as a way. But I love that point, the thought that went through my head as I was thinking about this is like well, why now? We always wanted to do what you just said is, again from the right people at the right time and having efficient growth and make sure that our product value but why now? I started to think about why, let’s just go through it. I think about a magic that happens every five years in marketing and sales, something new that happens if you think about it. 2000 email marketing I think most of you probably don’t remember as much I look much younger than I am. Email marketing was awesome where I used to get 80, 90% open rates how many of you remember that? Don’t raise your hand that’s okay. It is the most crazy, it was awesome. 2000 was phenomenal. Email marketing is still awesome but what’s your open rate lately? 20% 20% wow! I want to hear from you after this one that’s awesome. On a good day that’s a really big thing. A lot of companies are even struggling to have 2, 3, 4% rates. That’s email today. I’m so glad what Sixter was sharing, what Aaron was sharing about Sixter but email is the number one channel that’s being used. It’s the most used channel internally and externally. There is nothing wrong with that but the results that you’re getting from it are not as nice. Let’s go find more ears. Pardot, Marketo, Eloqua, everybody came to li right? They all because they said, “You know what, we can capture leads if we can send emails we can capture leads that’s awesome, that’s when marketing automation was awesome. At that time, sales people started to say, how many of you are in sales? All right, marketing you’re sending crappy leads, have you ever said that? There you go. This is the honest happy hour conversation. Marketers sending me crappy leads has been one of the number one trending topic up there on Google if you go start searching for it. That because any and everybody could download an eBook of some sort would just send through the sales team. That person may not be ready to buy it and when the salesperson calls them they’re like ticked off like why are you calling me? I just wanted to learn something, I didn’t even open it and you’re calling me you’re like so fast about it. That’s really what happened with too much automation then. I ran marketing at Pardot so I’m responsible for that and I think everybody who is the marketo group we are responsible for it because I think the automation pushed it over the edge, it wasn’t designed for everybody sending a ton of emails, it was designed to be very sophisticated, nurturing value added timely content but we overdid some of that. Sales started to say, what the hell? What are you doing? That’s when predictive came about. They said, “You know what, we’re going to solve this problem, we’re going to tell exactly which lead we need to get and when because we know which leads are predicted to sell right? Buy from you so that’s where predictive came about. But if you think about it, the whole last 50 years we have been trying to solve the same problem, this is what you said, trying to get it from the right people at the right time and the only thing that happened in this whole process is less than 1% of leads turn into customers. I think that’s why ABM is so much relevant, it’s not a new idea. I’ll be the first person to say ABM is nothing new this is what we all wanted to do from day one. There is nothing new about it, the only thing new is there is lack for technology that you probably use to do what you need to do and we can still do the same thing and sales will still get some crappy leads if you do that in the wrong way. With that little back history I think about it this way very quickly I won’t go to detail but that’s really what its all about, it’s re-imagining the world that we live in which is less than 1% of the leads done on customers because you’re only looking at leads you’re not looking at the future customers that you really care about. When you flip it, you start with the right people in the right companies, that means you’re going to spend more time with them, it makes perfect sense for you to do that because you’re not going after everybody and then you’re going to turn them into advocates back in sales and measuring. We’re going to go through some examples of it. That’s what happens when you send my graphic designer told me run it off your laptop because there is fun that you need installed so you didn’t do that. You’re going to see some funny things and I thought after a couple of drinks you all could be game for these stuff. Number one, be you. Alright be you and this is what I think … This is my daughter Kia and every time I try to buy, she’s a Halloween baby so she almost had her fourth birthday and it was funny because I don’t know what she was wearing, I think it was a crown thing that turned into like horns later on, I don’t know something happened there. But every time I’ll go shop for her, I always get this soft unicorn princess ballet dancer t-shirts. There is nothing wrong with it, that’s awesome. But after I do go and buy for Krish my son and we’ll see that later in the slide, you would get rockster hero courageous, superman like all these kind of things that I’m like I don’t want my daughter to think that she is not that. She is that, but I also want to think that she is brave and she is strong and she is fearless and it’s hard. I will always go try to buy these T-shirts that actually say that so she’s more than that. What I mean by that is as marketers we have to figure out who we are, we’re not there to create just incredibly amazing looking graphics, that’s one part of our job to have an amazing experience. But the other part is that we are here to drive the business forward. That is the number one job we are, we exist to drive it and if that doesn’t happen, then we’re not doing our job. I feel like we have to redefine who are and what our purpose is in our companies. I think the other part that I started to think about is inside your team. Where marketing and sales works together, how many of you in your companies marketing sales work as one team? Not many people raising their hands. That is the number one challenge when we think about why is the problem with marketing and sales right? I think about it not just fist bumping but the mindset that we have. We can through a very specific example on it. I would love to hear if anybody has a single score card. Single score card for marketing and sales. Do you have different goals or the same goal? Same goal. Same goal? Yeah. Does that really happen in your company? At a higher level yes. It’s important to note that because if you have two different goals guess what’s going to happen? You’re going to focus on different things and that’s not going drive it. I love that you love that idea. This is what happened in our company, we went through the transformation. This is a true story where Todd our CRO said that of this doesn’t work. If when you went through the transformation we’re going to go through examples on what that transformation looks like and he said   this doesn’t work. If this doesn’t work, then we definitely screwed up we didn’t know what we did. On our side, he can see that we are prospecting over there because that’s Lucas our SER leader, so he still uses that. He said, “You know what, I’m saving four hours of my time every single day because I’m not prospecting, because I already know who to go after.” Think about the value that you can drive in your company. Then finally from a marketing perspective we’re saying that we don’t need to measure leads. How many of you measure leads as the single point of success to that company? That’s okay because I think that’s a really important matter. But as a single metric I think we have different metrics that we can work today. Let’s think about why this is an important lesson to learn. If all the buck stops at C.E.O especially for this. Now, how many of you had to have an approval from your C.E.O for a content management system? Or a given marketing automation to be like completely change things or the form the landing page form or something like that we really don’t go to the C.E.O for all of that. You don’t even show all the results that we get from all of these because it doesn’t really matter to the C.E.O because he doesn’t think yet what are my results? Or when you do ABM what I learned that if you’re C.E.O is not bought in he’s going to give different metrics to marketing and sales and if you have different metrics you don’t have the same score card, you cannot create consummation in your organization. This is the number failure I saw why companies are not able to do the ABM really well is not having their CEO fully bought in. For example I’ll tell you another story in our company talking about Todd. We are in a board meeting and in that meeting the board meeting have them raise money that’s the one fun thing right? You have one meeting every six weeks that you have to tell them what happened. They’re like, “Look show us what happened and here is the excel spreadsheet shows us how many emails you created how much revenue you’ve generated. That is the standard sword in every single company and we couldn’t say that we were like look it’s a different metric, different game, we do not need 10,000 leads we will only go out for that 1,000 companies that’s our market because they are the best companies to go after. It’s a completely different thing, that coming for a C.E.O thought this wouldn’t work, we wouldn’t have been able to go through the board meeting and get it. It took about six months for us to get the board completely convinced that this is something we need to do which means different measure and report different and that doesn’t naturally happen. Number four, measure the right things. That’s my son Krish, that’s that, it’s less about ABM more about my family. But this is outside our house and one day I think it’s like on summer, he had a football in his hand and a basketball T-shirt and football socks and tennis, he’s wearing all these things and I’m like, “What are we doing here?” And he’s like, “We’re going to play.” I’m like, “What game are we going to play?” Because I have no idea what games we’re going to play?” He said, “Well, anything is possible.” When I think about it, well that’s great that anything is possible for his age, it’s perfectly normal to do all these things but as he grows up he’s going to figure out that there is only one sport that he can be really good at and not all of them right? I feel like as marketers we have to figure out what metrics we’re going to measure. If we’re going to measure all the metrics, every single thing that we always measure, I don’t think we’re going to see the difference in anybody else because they are all going to ask for the same things, we have to stop doing certain things. This is the free work that we have been, we have known in the last maybe three and half years, this is the one thing that I would say has really transformed the way we think about it which is the scheme framework and I’m going to quickly go through and within the Q and A we’re going to talk more about it. But think about the target engage activate and measure team which means sales and marketing have the same target list of accounts to go after. Don’t do from this not leads same target list of accounts to go after. You’re engaging that this marketing and sales are working on the same one and you’re engaged with all different things that you’re doing from marketing perspective, you’re still doing that but only to those set target accounts, we’ll go through an example for that. Then afterward this is by far the most important step because they are in the marketing automation world we know how to activate sales to alerts and now actively being on the accounts is super important. Have you ever thought the title of the sales rep is what? Senior accounting executive. Account executive. She doesn’t care about leads her title says that, I mean she cares about accounts. When marketing gives leads to sales, they don’t look at it but if she knows hey, this is my 20 accounts that I would focus on in Chicago for example and if you send a lead from that account guess what, Ali is going to care about it. That’s why account is so important to think about and using that on a day to day basis. I think the measurement is engagement and we’re going to look at a two or three different examples where how companies are measuring success but I would love for you guys to think about are you measuring the right things? Because when you measure leads and different things it’s not going to give you the same output you can’t have the same conversations about companies marketing with them. The things that we have stopped measuring in our own organization, stop measuring leads, you stop measuring conversion from leads and we have to stop measuring website traffic. What will happen if you stop doing that? You’re going to say I’ve no idea what marketing does. But then what we had started to measure is engagement. Engagement meaning people spending time on your website from the accounts that you actually care about not the entire graphic but the time that those accounts that you sales team care about they are spending on a website very specific. We’re measuring velocity, deals that are moving faster because you’re able to focus on only those deals not every single one. Then finally, the deal size and that happens all the time. If you focus on the right account, you’re seeing that the deal sizes are going up for almost all of our customers on that. This is scope part that I was talking about throughout that sales and marketing meets every single week and walks in. Think about it, there is no lead mentioned anywhere we only have tiers and if you do tiering for your accounts I think that changed, that was a game changer for me when I started to do like for those 10 years I didn’t understand marketing involvement. When we started tiering it really made sense because we can do the same amount of marketing initiatives for the companies that are high value. Let’s say there is a $1 million deal and there is another that is another that is at $50,000 deal and if your marketing is going to be the same for both then you’re missing the point completely right? $1 Million deal is going to have much different activities maybe there is a free marketing event, maybe there is a bigger direct mail campaign, maybe there is an executive outreach campaign that you’ve added maybe there is a very specific webinar that we need to do where only 10 people can attend but you are doing specifically for them in that industry. Very different than for a $50,000 deal where you can say no one hears how you can use it because that’s a low price for them good? How do you determine what’s constituted an account that was engaged such as one person on the account that had to interact with anything, is it within a certain kind of range? That’s a great question, define engagement how do we define it? Because it could be almost a fluffy word right because engagement is by everybody. Engagement to us is one knowing which is account let’s say company X and if we can find out what the engagement meaning how much time that particular company is spending with us, that could be they have come to our website like once a month or something like that. There are only one person in that company and that’s like the bare minimum, that’s the baseline from us. As we activate the marketing campaign we started an engagement with them which means we were doing some advertising for them, direct mail, email campaigns, whatever else we were doing with those is very specific we’re watching that and if that engagement goes up meaning that more than one person now from that account is coming to our website. All of a sudden the number of people in that account are engaged. Two, if they are spending more and is there surge in the amount of time they’re spending on the product and pricing business not every page but product and pricing pages. Now we know that, that account is not only the best fit account if you want to go after but they have intent and engagement towards buying. Those signals are super important and now when you give that information to our sales team like oh, these accounts you care about you only had one person now they are four people and on top of that the engagement is such your sales teams is going to go all over it. That’s how you define engagement. The other question is, what’s the big difference from what happened in 2005 and what’s happening 2015 and it showed people are going offline with the content anyways. Offline with the content? Yeah because it’s like you’re saying like 10 people download a pdf or pricing but you know if they saw everything or if they just send them to the trash out how do you measure that engagement in that regard? I mean I think people are not necessarily going offline, I think people are not filling the forms anymore. I don’t know how many of you love filling forms? Very few of us right? I don’t even know I put in like four, four, four numbers, somebody gets the phone calls all the time because of me. This is what has been happening, so we have … I think we are all spending more time online but we are spending less time downloading and waiting for somebody to do it. For example if your sales team is waiting for the C.E.O or a C.F.O or main decision maker to download something I think that’s history, that’s not happening anymore. What they are typically saying is that, this is interesting and they would probably go and check the website out, that’s the signal, that’s the engagement that all of a sudden I see the one the champion in that company but also the executives in that company are spending time without downloading anything. If you can get that signal that’s super important.That is a signal that was missing the last 10 years. It’s just to keep them on the web not getting to download anything. Correct. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. So I have, two more questions. For your opening, created opportunities how are you looking at net new versus the enterprise sale where you’re going deeper into different either visions or business units and the other thing is how do you get alignment on what those definitions have been all the same so across the sales executive committee. Because I know that was a conflict where the HO1 person especially a new personal team or like I don’t think if they could exist. Is there a teaching write this with an initial like appendix of what defines each one of these items? For especially gearing? For engage for  or is that like net new within the enterprise because all those members would be very- Very hard. How did you share that to say what this actually mean and get everybody in mind and if you are doing those enterprise type deals where you’re going deeper into organizations and hitting multiple business units or multiple brands like if you were more real how would identify all twenty something? Love that question. First question is like, how do we do this? How do we get alignment and agreement to even do this? It was extremely hard I terribly failed at least maybe five times before we got to this place. We failed a number of times to finding more tiers in that course. But one thing that we did that I think worked for us and we tried to advocate about this to everybody that we tried to get them to come up for this score card. This may not be the score card for you. You may have to define a different score card for your own organization that’s fine this is absolutely more for us. We failed on that fact that we initially the first one we failed on was we had sales like hey which accounts do you want to go after. we failed right away because they said, you know what we ought to go after the biggest logos in the world and then I knew best bit so we failed there. Second, marketing came off with their own accounts we failed again because marketing was coming very specifically based on what they thought and I think both of those scenarios we failed. The third one where we actually went to our customer success team and looked at our best customers and seeing why are these customers winning and who is the right kind of customer, who are the right people in those companies who are championing our product. That changed the equation. So having this customer success being part of that decision making process of theory, absolutely helps and they’re the last people to reach out to even to you they are making the business rep. The go to market team, in my opinion, is not sales and it’s not only marketing, it is actually sales, marketing and customer success and if so are the whole thing is built around customer success team sitting in that room telling us you know what, you can’t sell the tier one companies at this price point because there’s so much maintenance around it and we have to do so many things so you have to change the pricing of the services. So then it allows us to spend more money on tiering. If they wouldn’t tell us that we wouldn’t have been able to do it. So that’s where we kind of start it off. And the second question is where, how do we do our first seven business units within our organization? I think from our perspective for terminus, we’re able to target very specific to a specific business unit. Like I think that’s something we can talk about later on, but that’s targeting has changed tremendously. I think 10 years ago that wasn’t possible. It just wasn’t like the most you can do is email and finding email or buy email and stuff. Right now with all the security, I’m glad you’re not buying emails, right? But advertising is one of the ways we can proactively get in front of people that is something that’s acceptable. But we can dive in playground for sure. It is one of the tougher problems. I love this is awesome. Is advertising your primary channel. Once you’ve identified your list of accounts, is that how you’re getting those people in your database? We have something in each one of these carriers. We help the targeting. We got partnership with Bombora and data partners that allows us to target better. Engagement is by far the area where we totally dominant because that’s where we started off it. From exertion perspective, we figure out what are the right size incentive need to give to the sales team because we figured out if you don’t get the sales team bought into it, this is not going to work this is going to fail. Then obviously from a measurement perspective, we acquired a company called Bright Funnel last year. So all of a sudden … And the reason we acquired right funnel was because nobody was doing even that to think about it. If you think about it if we do everything right and we measured the same old way, we will never be able to move forward. We ended up saying, okay, what do we do? We need to buy something that have a really good foundation of analytics, but then over it we override it with ABM focused on analytics. This quarter that you’re seeing, you can now pull out of terminus and actually see what’s happening with it and It’ll build data engagement data, not just from advertising but engagement data from your Marketo, salesforce, all differences and give us total overall health of that particular account. Almost a 360 view across the board of what’s happening with it. That’s something that we started actually got started with that. Cool, I actually I started with that that’s like that’s awesome. All right, but we’re halfway through but I will pass the go through super fast. ABM is more than demand gen. I mean if you really disagree with that. It has to be. Yeah, it has to be right? It can be. To your earlier point, I think somebody asked about like, you know, where does it fit? I believe the greatest opportunity, if you all try to do ABM and find success, I think the greatest opportunity is actually here by phone with velocity and acceleration. Anybody you have an idea why? That’s where your sales team is fully committed. They’ve raised their hand and said, we are committing these as in clubs. You already know what your length of your sales cycle typically is. When something gets pipeline like let’s say 90 days or 20 days, whatever it is, you already know what the deal sizes and you already have CEO, CFO everybody looking at it. You have the greatest attention from your organization at that point. Imagine if the marketer, if you can give air cover and do anything to drive those accounts to completion. That’s when pipeline velocity really jumps in You’re going to be hero in your organization because that’s where money is stuck. What we pushed get pushed into demand gen because they want. Everybody wants us to buy leads, but in reality, that’s where you can drive the most revenue. Our most successful customers, their first pilot project to get success and get buy in from everybody, to have it different defined score card and all that stuff is showing that, you know, what, let us help us drive more pipeline and the revenue. That’s the number one thing that I feel like most organizations are trying to do and that’s where they see success. An example of this, this is really interesting because if you think about their ad and messaging, what they did is they’re not looking at it again, but traffic overall, they’re looking at traffic from the target accounts. It really doesn’t matter if more people showed up. Like I remember when we did press releasing and the spike goes up on Google analytics and the CEO and the board is like super happy. Like wow, Marketing is doing a great job but it doesn’t drive revenue. And now, now when you can do very specific targeted things. You can actually create a ton of that. Here’s another one that I want to have something where at Marketo you know right? Here’s the company Hubspot. Anybody familiar with Hubspot? They created a full flow around it in Marketo, Salesforce, the whole tiering of account where they’re running terminus ads, they’re using their own sales enablement with where they have a whole process mapped out to figure out how we go after target accounts based on TRA because he wasn’t a very big part of their whole process that are incredible. Then able to see that they have more accounts added and they will process where your sales team, if it’s accepted, we run another set of terminus ads or any different ads or campaigns and if they are not accepted that they will run another set of campaigns like just a different messaging because they were not accepted so they created a full blown campaign to drive success and you can see the ABM is not one tool and hopefully that’s like super clear to everybody as you’re doing. It’s not marketing automation it’s not email it’s none of that. Because if all of them are tech tools to do all you want. But ABM is a strategy. As a co-founder of terminus, I would say if you’re using only terminus then you’re not doing ABM, you probably are doing a very targeted advertising and you’re getting a few things, but you’re not doing ABM because it has to work with your sales team whatever the tools they’re using it maybe Salesloft or outreach or whatever that’s worth for the marketing programs using Marketo or whatever it might be. It has to work with any other software else that you’re trying to do. It’s a full on strategy that looked forward to having everything connected together. That was really cool because they were able to score ABMC and have their ADR saw through it. The results were just again very targeted. Everybody’s looking at can we get a lift and more engagement in penetration in my target accounts. Does it make sense? Cool. Alright, so we walked through this, but this is one of my favorite jars. When thought about what we do in marketing and sales, I feel like all we’re trying to really do is between low touch and high touch and high tech and low tech. You think about direct mail sales call, we at the and things we cannot low tech, low touch. If you go far and say you know what, sponsoring large events in content marketing, email nurturing, they get into more high tech activities. You can think about all the other industry events, small events, customer demos, and all the way to high tech high touch where you’re really focused on personalized video, personalized advertising, personalized webinars, whatever you can do to personalize them. I think this is the high tech. High touch is where the magic is. That’s where most people will find success is when they have a combination of their high tech activities be a combination of six survey combination of email and whatnot, but they also have a high touch with it that drives the greatest results. Here’s another example of that WB Engine where the sales and marketing, what we got, here’s the beauty they did. They did one to one ads. How many of you are running one, to one. One ad per company, one app per persona, one ad per segment, one ad per opportunity stage because that meant a million dollars to them one to one. I think that’s where it’s going is that can you create that personalized one to one experience? So when they click on that ad, the page they go through, they use Uberflip so they’re able to see the place where now people are not downloading anything they’re actually on a place where they have a full on experience of because it’s very specific to them, is their name, the company’s name, all that information. They have a tremendous amount of success with that and this is our stack, right? I want to just openly share what, what tools we use today because I think everybody needs to look at their stack. When we think about our own stack, not super easy to go to our CFO and they’re like, hey, you know what? We need to be better at targeting so here are the tools we’re going to use we do a veteran engagement instead of just saying we want this tool or that tool they’re able to map it to the strategy that we as an organization have agreed upon. Are highly engaged to build a tech stack based on business rules and that really helped us get a ton of budget approved. Alright, this is another example with simple which is one to one company. They had very clear banner ad, they took them to a page where there’s all this content and then Morgan over here she’s a SDR, she just turned in the AE, in one year how many ads, how many one to one videos she has done? Just guess a number one to one videos to do avion? 100. Go higher. 1,000. Go higher. 3,000 videos and our open rates on email are 80% because her emails are very targeted to a one to that person with very specific with their name on it. That takes them to and then during while she’s doing that, their ads or campaigns going on. Your work sales and marketing working together and regardless of where they come from, they go to this one page where it’s all about them. The amount of time that particular company spends on the website is through the roof and I think that where we need to go to as marketing is how can we get our target accounts spent a tremendous amount of time with us? Because that’s game changer and that’s like you getting it like in advance for whatever progress services you’re selling because you are ahead of your competitors because … Alright, so this one is pretty simple. I feel like it is sprints if you’re doing ABM or Atlantic medium and if you want to do a campaign across the board, I would say don’t start big campaign don’t think about like a big result don’t go for a 12 month program go for like three months or two months and that’s even even one month pilot. They let me just try and see if you can create engagement in target accounts. Let me just try and see if it penetrates your pipeline of parents like really small ones going through it. Then 10 this is again, like the only person remaining from my family is my wife. This is where we’re at is like, how do you accept to create judgment or is a wow! Like the graphics are off the chart. That’s my customer, not future current customer and I don’t want to be fired. Some of you have seen this slide they have seen me present before. I feel like I went through this with her two years ago at Christmas and I said, “Hey, what do I do to have the most impact in our relationship?” And I think I was very bold that day. I went through this and we started with this idea of like, okay, well, things that you want those you want at starts school just want me to do. Yeah, it’s good things that I love will you really care. She started with basic things like just green card. Don’t forget to pick up the kids from the school that just happened once, those kind of things. Then, you know, like don’t ask her like what she wants for Christmas or birthday, like after 12 years you’re expected to know. That was a negative thing, very low in fact our relationship is not negative. Then she works in our work so this is where it’s more about like how I can become like mom and dad on the weekends, which I absolutely fail all the time. But the things that, you know, this is where it’s interesting because she hates, my job is to do dishes so she hates where just piled up all way and until then and I’ll just keep looking at it and she is getting upset about it. If you could just clean up throughout the day that’d be awesome kind of stuff. But what really mattered to her was this, flowers on a random Wednesday. What a reason for the last 12 years in our marriage, I’ve done that almost all the time where whenever there are no flowers I’ll just go get it. Or now as I’m traveling more this year, I’ll just write a note for her and then I’ll give it to Krish and then Krish would write his name and then give it to her every night I’m gone. If I’m going for one night, it’s one if I’m gone for four rounds for and to her that matters more and the reason I bring that up is because whatever we do as marketers, it has to matter and it doesn’t matter then we’d rather do it because that’s what the customer, your future customers will remember like how much did you care about? My big thought, their customer heroism going from wi heroism is that what if all the things that you do write email nurturing block those recommendations fine you could just read this graph. It might help your marriage or relationship, but it can also help marketing just to connect it back to it. You might be doing all these things, right? What I would really encourage you guys to think about is this, what if when you found all those things and you stop everything that has low impact and status quo. What will happen if you don’t send your weekly newsletter except your CEO, probably nobody would care. You have to swallow that pill, but what will happen if you didn’t write three blogs a week and just show one, what will happen if you do what? … Just stop doing the things that you don’t think is creating impact for your customers and what if you put all of your time, your energy, your money, your resources on these things, things that you’re creating out of love because you care for your customers because you know that will have a 10 x impact on the customer value. All those things. What will happen when you stop all these things and have all the time to focus on that? I think wherever that is, maybe that’s an extreme, but somewhere in between is where EVMS it’s really focusing on things that absolutely matters. Otherwise you’re just doing or using automation too much. But that said, if you get a chance to, you know, check out flipmyfunnel podcasts. If you have a story that’s my cell phone number, don’t call me. I won’t pick up, but if you text me, I will absolutely respond, thank you so much.

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